Sailonline.org - Online Sailing

Facebook

Login

Support Sailonline

If you haven't already - join the SAILONLINE YACHT CLUB!

Please also consider making a donation - all amounts are greatly appreciated!

Tweets by @sailonline

Board » Technical Discussion » Performance loss

Page: First Previous 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Last

Posted by javakeda Posts 73 Registered at 2013-03-01 03:18:22	2013-10-14 19:06:44 - Re: Performance loss
	A2R: The maxBtSpd for 17kts is about 13kt, so not really close to the 16+kts needed based on the BtSpd rule alone. I think the Treff-Team site, noted in my prior post, really tells us a lot. I would love to know the complete history of that site. I suspect that it was developed to support both virtual and real life racing. VR is a likely virtual venue. Note the heading "Ocean Virtuel" above the 3D-graphics that show color-coded sail preferences. I really have to admire the work that went into this site. So, why the switch to sailonline? I don't want to speculate. I am just glad it happened. Meanwhile, here is an alternative hypothesis for the PERF change: The BtSpd rule applies, but there is an additional penalty for changes in COG that exceed X-degrees -- and we have to figure out what X is. Maybe something like: PERF=(100-BtSpd/2)*deltaDEGREES/XDEGREES If it looked like that, I'd bet on XDEGREES=90 (pi/2 in radians) coupled with a test on the sign of the TWA. If the sign changes, the deltaDEGREES is assumed to be at least 90. But all that is just a priori guesswork. I should be able to test both hypotheses in the same data gathering series. Back to the stopwatch.
Posted by A2 Posts 347 Registered at 2009-10-26 00:39:42	2013-10-14 19:35:26 - Re: Performance loss
	Example cited is consistent with the formula (I should have done the math before commenting) --- Last Edited by A2R at 2013-10-15 11:24:27 --- None so blind
Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2013-10-14 20:34:58 - Re: Performance loss
	Ok, so this is the image, and raw data from tonight's practice race. I think we can conclude that performance recovery is linear, or at least close to linear (without steps). If anyone wants to have the PHP script I used, ask me. You'll need to know how to run PHP scripts, and how to install pear's System Daemon-1.0.0 Attachments perflog.csv (16.8 KB) perf-model-2.png (31.5 KB)
Posted by Rod Posts 392 Registered at 2010-06-24 22:30:48	2013-10-14 21:07:49 - Re: Performance loss
	May I suggest, Kroppyer, in all due humility etc etc ...We are attempting here to clarify and to simplify the perf loss and recovery phenomenon for the benefit of those among us (such as myself) who either are many years since their last mathematics course or have only a small knowledge of math. If processes or notations, that are not simplified or clarified, are introduced in this discussion, it just further adds mystification to a procedure that is already somewhat obscure to many SOLers. p.s. An example was the introduction of 'radians' instead of 'degrees' into the discussion. I know radians etc, but their extra convenience in calculations is not something I understand immediately. I can visualize the Captain, in an emergency, giving the order, "0.356 Radians of sinister wheel on!" and being answered by "HUH?" i.e. it is not maritime terminology...... --- Last Edited by Rod at 2013-10-14 21:15:34 --- If it breaks, it's not strong enough--if it doesn't, it's too heavy.
Posted by javakeda Posts 73 Registered at 2013-03-01 03:18:22	2013-10-14 21:59:58 - Re: Performance loss
	And may I suggest, Rod, with all due humility that we watch and learn from Kroppyer. Note that his data logging program is far more accurate than hand logging from the SOL client. It establishes, beyond a doubt in my mind, that the PERF recovery rate is linear and constant. Well, done, indeed! As for the math terms in use, nothing mentioned in this thread so far goes beyond what I learned in 10th grade -- in 1954. When I became interested in routing, I realized I needed a refresher course or two. I took a number of courses at Khan Academy. Here is the url: https://www.khanacademy.org/ The courses are free, and bite sized. I recommend this site to anyone who wants to polish their basic math skills. As for using the term 'radians'...I offer no apologies. If you want to use a spreadsheet to calculate VMG and such, you need to be able to use the RADIANS function to translate from degrees to radians. This is not an obscure term.
Posted by kroppyer Posts 346 Registered at 2010-02-05 15:25:55	2013-10-14 23:30:09 - Re: Performance loss
	Rod, thanks for the feedback on my way of communicating in this thread. I am trying to find the formulas behind the performance loss and recovery model. When I found a model that is close enough to the one SOL uses, I will describe it in a way that most people will understand it, even if they're not too good with maths, I want to put this performance model in the calculator of spinnacer. While I'm trying to discover these formulas I'm not really focussing on making it understandable to all. I'm merely sharing my findings and thoughts for those interested. I hope everyone will do the same. All contributions of other people are welcome, the more data/thoughts/discoveries, the better. I will try describe and explain a little more, but I'm still trying to find the actual formulas and then explain them, instead of explaining how I'm trying to find them. I made a new version of the PHP script, polling every 5 seconds. It also uses two models which try to predict the performance loss. So we can compare the actual performance loss matches with the model and see if it matches. I discovered that recovery is not perfectly linear: recovery per minute is 9/boatspeed%, but boatspeed is increasing as performance is increasing, so its not a constant rate of recovery. In the image, m1_eff is using the assumption that the boatspeed used to calculate the rate of recovery is the actual boatspeed, m2_eff is using the assumption that the rate of recovery is based on the boatspeed when perf would be 100%. I included the raw data, but it's cut off because I has some internet problems. So I'll try again, with some more different manoeuvres, another time. The raw data is a csv file, which can be opened with excel, or another spreadsheet program, but also with a text editor. I included the angles in degrees in the file. I'm looking forward to the day captains order their helmsman to steer ".2 tau" (.2 being in base 12, and tau being 2pi), and pilotes are "requesting takeoff from runway .9 tau" EDIT: the graph (image) has a wrong scale on the x-axis (horizontal), the numbers are seconds, not minutes. --- Last Edited by kroppyer at 2013-10-14 23:39:32 --- Attachments* perflog_1.csv (9.2 KB) perf-model-3.png (33.5 KB)
Posted by javakeda Posts 73 Registered at 2013-03-01 03:18:22	2013-10-15 00:52:38 - L
	Kroppyer: I remain in awe, and am watching and learning. I think the last time I programmed in PHP the version level was 3-something. I'd love to update my version -- just to understand what you are doing. Again, the last time I programmed and ran PHP I used a standalone UNIX server. The application was paired with a MySQL database. I was helping a non-profit group manage their event attendance. This was volunteer work. Not sure what I would need to run your script. I would hope that I could run it in a standalone environment [UNIX, or whatever]. Your knowledge here is leagues ahead of mine. Would love to discuss this off-line. Not sure how that happens. netwrangler@yahoo.com is an email path that might work. Regards, Javakeda Bob
Posted by A2 Posts 347 Registered at 2009-10-26 00:39:42	2013-10-15 11:12:00 - Re: Performance loss
	Posted by javakeda 2013-10-14 17:17:35 Sail Management "Sailing my SOLTP52 in ~17kts TWS earlier today, I reached off from a TWA of -36 to a TWA of -153. I was greeted with an initial PERF hit down to 91.83%" =========================== 117 degrees equals 2.042035 radians divided by 25 equals 0.0816814 Efficiency of 91.832% --- Last Edited by A2R at 2013-10-15 11:52:55 --- None so blind
Posted by A2 Posts 347 Registered at 2009-10-26 00:39:42	2013-10-15 12:17:15 - Rod's Konstant
	For every Degree of course change, that does not induce a Tack or Gybe, there is a .06981317% Performance Loss. None so blind
Posted by sol Posts 295 Registered at 2008-08-14 11:08:14	2013-10-15 12:46:11 - Re: Performance loss
	oops, wrong account - kroppyer --- Last Edited by sol at 2013-10-15 12:48:19 ---

Page: First Previous 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Last

Please login to post a reply.

Races

Next Race: 00d 00h 00m

Current Races:

SOL's Bermuda Triangle TIMED Race 2023
Inspired by the America’s Cup racing in Bermuda, this is a fun triangular course of 90nm, which we originally raced with psail and bonkhoot’s collaborative polar for the AC72 foiling catamaran. Having tried the course in the more pedestrian Open 60 in 2021, this year we return to the AC72, in fact to the MODIFIED AC72v2, modified to remove the inconsistencies that obtained from the original interpolation of the limited data issued by the AC 2003 Principal Race Officer in connection with penalties determination. This is a TIMED race, which means you get multiple chances to try out the ramifications of the revisions. Be careful though, the polar remains a handling challenge with major stall-out potential!
RE-REGISTER HERE to race again after finishing a run
Race #1704
INFO by brainaid.de
AC72v2 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
RANKING:
TRQ4 - TRCH - SUPSOL – SYC
RACE CLOSE: Friday,
15 December at 2300 UTC
Race starts: Dec 02nd 12:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Christmas to Christmas Island 2023
Two waypoints, start and finish, and between them 5827 NM of two oceans. Not much time if we want to sit at the Christmas Eve table. You will need to maintain an average speed of over 10 knots, so prepare your Volvo70s well and choose the best of the many possible routes. Hands up everyone who knew there were TWO Christmas Islands?! OK, maybe you have sailed this Sailonline course before... but it's time to get ready for the 2023 challenge of racing between Christmas Island in the Pacific to Christmas Island in the Indian Ocean! It also marks the conclusion of our prestigious Ocean Race Championship 2023. Please have fun! Fair winds!
PRIZE: SMPF
Race #1745
INFO by brainaid.de
Volvo70 PARTICULARS
WX Updates:
0430 / 1030 / 1630 / 2230
Ranking: OCQ4 - OCCH - SUPSOL - SYC
Race starts: Dec 01st 23:00 Registration Open!

▶ Flash

GO TO RACE

Go to race archive

SYC Ranking

View full list

Series

Mobile Client

SYC members have the benefit of access to our mobile/lightweight web client!

The mobile client